1. "Before Christ's death on the cross at Calvary, the souls of the dead went to Hades, A SUPERNATURAL PLACE...."
Question: Where does the Bible call hades "a supernatural place?" Nowhere!
2. "...somewhere in the HEART OF THE EARTH."
Question: Where does the Bible say that hades is in "the heart of the earth?" Nowhere!
3. "Hades has TWO COMPARTMENTS..."
Question: Where does the Bible say that hades has "two compartments?" Nowhere!
4. "...the abode of the lost called in the bible 'TORMENT,'...."
Question: Where in the Bible is the abode of the lost called "torment?" Nowhere!
5. "...the place of the saints of God called PARADISE...."
Question: Where in the Bible is the the place of dead saints called "paradise?" Nowhere!
6. "...and also referred to as 'ABRAHAM'S BOSOM."
Question: Where in the Bible are dead saints said to be in "Abraham's Bosom?" Nowhere!
7. "When Jesus gave up His Spirit to death, He went into THE PARADISE...."
Question: Where in the Bible does it say that Jesus ever went to "the paradise?" Nowhere!
8. "...side of Hades and 'TOOK CAPTIVITY CAPTIVE?"
Question: Where in the Bible does it say Christ took "captivity captive" from Hades? Nowhere?
9. "This means He took all the souls of the saints who had died to that point to be with God the Father IN HEAVEN."
Question: Where in the Bible does it say Jesus took souls from Hades and took them to "heaven?" Nowhere!
10. "The paradise side of Hades is now empty."
Question: Where in the Bible does it say that there is a Paradise in Hades, and where does it say that it is NOW EMPTY? Nowhere?
11. "The torment side today holds all souls of people WHO REJECTED CHRIST'S SALVATION."
Question: Where in the Bible does it say that there is a "torment" side of Hades that now holds all the souls of people "who rejected Christ's salvation." Nowhere!
12. "...and WHO HAVE DIED to this point in human history."
Question: Where in the Bible does it say that all those who have died in human history are in a compartment of Hades called "torment?" Nowhere!
13. "People who are saved by believing in Christ today, and who die, NOW GO DIRECTLY TO GOD, THE FATHER, IN HEAVEN."
Question: Where in the bible does it say that all today who die, believing in Christ "go directly to God, the Father, in heaven?" Nowhere? In fact, I will give anyone ONE THOUSAND DOLLARS if they can show me a Scripture that says believing Christians today go directly to God in heaven when they die!
Thirteen out of thirteen--ALL LIES; ALL UNSCRIPTURAL! This is typical Christian Theology-- Unscriptural nonsense.
-- Edited by soulsolution on Tuesday 5th of July 2011 09:17:32 PM
[The following email is Nick's reply to Ray's request that he limit his many criticisms down to just one subject in which he felt he could easily prove Ray's teachings wrong and unscriptural]
Let's give it a shot...You of course will be blue and I will be red...
This quote is taken from your "Email and Replies" section and is titled "The UN-Pardonable sin"...Just so you don't accuse me of quoting things that are nowhere on your site...
Many people speak of the "UNpardonable sin" as thought the Scriptures actually spoke of such a thing. They DO NOT! There is no such thing as an "unpardonable sin" in the Bible.
Well, then, what about Matt. 12:-31-32? Let's read it in a proper translation:
"Therefore I am saying to you, Every sin and blasphemy shall be pardoned men, yet the blasphemy of the spirit shall not be pardoned."
It certainly SOUNDS like the blasphemy of God's spirit is an unpardonable sin, doesn't it? Let's continue reading:
"And whosoever may be saying a word against the Son of Man, it will be pardoned him, yet whoever may be saying against the holy spirit, it shall not be pardoned him, [ever? continue reading...] neither in THIS EON [age] nor in that [age] which is IMPENDING."
Now then, does it really say this sin is UNPARDONABLE? It is only unpardonable "in this age" and also "in the age to come [the impending age]." So it doesn't say it will NEVER be pardoned--only in this and the coming age will it NOT be pardoned.
You then go on to explain how it will not be forgiven in this age or in the millenium but it will be forgiven after that...I didn't quote that part because you know your answer already...
Mark 3:28-29 are important verses in showing that there is an unforgivable sin...
28. "Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter; 29. but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin" -- (NASB).
The Greek Interlinear Bible reads...
"28. Amen I say to you that all will be sent off to the sons of the men the sins and the insults as much as if they might insult 29. who but might insult in the spirit the holy not he has sending off into the age but guilty he is of eternal sin"
Verses 28 and 29 are in contrast to each other (not contradiction). Verse 28 says that all sins shall be forgiven (will be sent off). Verse 29 clarifies the statement and flatly says that there is a sin that "never has forgiveness (not he has sending off), but is guilty of an eternal sin." Verse 29 also has the contrasting preposition "but" [Greek: de "de"] The use of the word "but" is showing that there is a contrast, or an exception to the previous statement. All sins are forgivable, but blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is not. That is why the word "but" is there, to show that there is a qualification, an exception to the first statement. Now I know that you will tell me the word "age", in Mark 3:29, means a definite period of time that will end. But that isn't the case. It is simply a conjecture on your part. You could not come to that understanding reading the Greek unless your presuppositions forced you to. As I said, Jesus is contrasting the second statement (unforgivable sin) with the first statement (forgivable sin). To take any other position is to go against the plain sense of the scripture.
Now, do these two accounts of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit contradict each other? Only if we look at them in light of your view. The account in Mark says that blasphemy of the Holy Ghost never has forgiveness. Matthew says it doesn't have forgiveness in this age or the age to come. If there is an age after the age to come in which it will be forgiven, that makes Mark 3:28-29 wrong. But if Mark 3:28-29 is right then it does not have forgiveness in this age, the age to come, or any other age. If this is the case (which it is the case) then Matthew 12:31-32 agrees perfectly with Mark 3:28-29. It is unforgivable period!
Right there you were refuted...But let us continue for a moment, shall we?
Now I could quote Mark 3:28-29 in 20 other translations and they all say the same thing. But for your benefit I will only quote it from the Concordant version in an attempt to see why it is translated the way it is...
28 "Verily, I am saying to you that all shall be pardoned the sons of mankind, the penalties of the sins and the blasphemies, whatsoever they should be blaspheming, 29 yet whoever should be blaspheming against the holy spirit is having no pardon for the eon, but is liable to the eonian penalty for the sin" --(Concordant Translation)
Once again Ray, why is every word translated but only eon and eonian are transliterated? And eonian is not even a word. Aionan would be correct here. Why is this Ray? Is it because it simply fits with your theology? Not just yours but everyone who believes in Universalism (I understand that you did not produce this translation of the Bible). This is exactly why. Almost all versions of the Bible are done by very well respected scholars. Why would we assume that over 20 versions are wrong and the one produced by those who believe the doctrines of Universalism to be right? The fact is you have to translate these words like this in an attempt to make one think that the age has a definite ending. but the "eonian penalty for the sin" is forever.
And just for a third witness I'd like to quote Luke 12:10 out of the KJV,
"And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven."
There it is...in perfect agreement with the other two witnesses. It shall not not be forgiven period. Not even a hint of age or eon in this verse. Just plain and simple unforgivable.
Ray, I don't expect any truth that I present to you will make you change your teaching. I believe I read on your site where you said you have 30+ versions of the Bible. If in all your reading of 30+ versions of the truth you have not come to believe the truth, then why would what I say change your mind? It won't. Anyway...you asked for one quote on your page that I could prove wrong scripturally. There it is..."UNpardonable sin". I welcome your response, but I already know it. You contend that there will be forgiveness after the Great White Throne Judgement to all people from all ages of time. Once again, this is wrong as was just shown.
Your logic goes something like this...It is God's will and desire to save ALL MANKIND (I Tim. 2:4). And God will certain fulfill ALL THAT HE HAS PURPOSED (Isaiah 46:10-11). You might also like to include 2Peter 3:9 as well as Psalm 115:3, 135:6. But even with all of these scriptures not everyone will be saved. God's desires are not always accomplished. Proverbs 21:3 - "To do righteousness and justice is desired by the Lord rather than sacrifice" -- (NASB) Obviously not everyone does what is right and just. In fact nobody does (Romans 3:10). The fact is that God gave commandments to men and it was his desire for them to keep those commandments. Would he give commandments that he did not desire for men to keep? Of course he wouldn't. Did men keep the commandments God gave? No they didn't. Did God know they would break these commandments before he ever gave them? Of course he did. But just because I know my 2 year old will go to the bathroom in her pants on a daily basis does not mean that I desire for her to do so. I won't go too far into this...you asked for one thing that was wrong scripturally and I gave it to you. If you ever want anything else then I will be happy to present that too.
But the bottom line is this...Here is how our conversations will go...
Ray: Your WRONG!
Nick: No, your WRONG!
Ray: No...you are (calls Nick some kind of name)!
Nick: No...you are (calls Ray some kind of name)!
So on and so forth...forever and ever...unto the aionan...blah...blah...blah...
Ecclesiastics 1:9 - The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun. -- (KJV)
Senior (that's Spanish for Mr.) Ray, You are not the first to believe in Universalism and you certainly won't be the last...There is no new thing under the sun. I am not the first to believe what the Bible really says and I won't be last...There is nothing new under the sun. But to your credit sir, you are the best at deceptively twisting scripture. I mean you are really good. If it hadn't been for the Spirit of God inside of me, I might have been fooled. I mean really Ray, I even compared you to another great deceiver (Louis Farakhan) when telling a friend about your heresy. I am not mad that you preach and teach what you do...in fact I'm quite sure that you really believe it. You probably used to believe just like me until your eyes were suddenly opened one day. Until you realized that a loving God could never torture the creation he loves so much. Until you realized that God could not and would not "UTTERLY FAIL" at accomplishing his will, which is for all people to be saved. Ray all I can do is pray for you because any truth I present to you will be rationalized in light of your present belief. It is a nice belief to think that everyone who has ever lived will enjoy life in the New Jerusalem with God for eternity. I wish I could believe that but I am simply blinded by the truth...Believe it or not I agree with quite a bit of what you say concerning very unimportant matters, but on the essentials we have nothing in common. Let's just agree on this..."The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil," -- (NASB)
May God smile upon you and your family!!!
Nick
[Ray Replies]
Dear Nick:
You quote the NASB which says: "...whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit NEVER has forgiveness..."
You then quote The Greek Interlinear Bible which says: "...who but might insult in the spirit the holy NOT he has sending off..."
Do you understand the difference between "not" and "never?" These two translations contradict each other. "not" and "never" ARE NOT THE SAME WORDS WITH THE SAME MEANING. You then contradict YOURSELF in your next statement by saying: "Verse 29 clarifies the statement and flatly says that there is a sin that 'NEVER has forgiven [NOT he has sending off)....'" You read it with you own eyes in a Greek Interlinear "not"---the word is "NOT," and say that this word means "NEVER." Let's read your statement again:
"Verse 29 clarifies the statement and flatly says that there is a sin that "NEVER has forgiveness NOT he has send off)..." It is my purpose to belabor this point. You say that the word "not" means "NEVER." This is not true, Nick.
"not, adv. 1 -- used as a function word to make negative a group of words or a word." (Webster's Collegiate Dictionary p. 848).
"never, adv. 1 -- not ever: at no time" (Webster's Collegiate Dictionary p. 834).
Can you now see the difference between these two words? Good. Maybe an example will clarify it even more for you:
Suppose I am a farmer and I say: "Will NOT plant corn this season nor the following season." And someone then passed on this statement and said: "Ray said that he will NEVER plant corn." Is that an accurate statement of what I said? NO IT ISN'T. Neither is your assertion that "not he has sending off into the age" means "never has forgiveness EVER."
The word "never" does not appear in ANY GREEK MANUSCRIPT. I checked three more Greek Interlinear and they all have the word "not." "Never"is a totally different word with a totally different meaning.
Next you say: The use of the word "but" is showing that there is a contrast, or an exception to the previous statement. All sins are forgivable, but blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is NOT." And there you put a PERIOD, as thou Jesus Christ put a period at this point of His statement. You are very deceitful when you do things like this, Nick. Jesus said that "...blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is not forgiven NEITHER IN THIS WORLD, NEITHER IN THE WORLD TO COME." When will blasphemy "not be forgiver?" Answer: "IN THIS AGE AND THE AGE TO COME." Jesus did not say: "in this age and in the age to come, AND FOR ALL ETERNITY TOO." Is that what He said? Then why do YOU and Christendom say that that is what He said, when He said no such thing?
First your "TAKE AWAY" from the word of God: you LEAVE OUT the phrase "in this world [age], neither in the world [age] to come."
Next you "ADD TOO" the word of God: you turn TWO AGES INTO ETERNITIES!!
Where is the honest Biblical scholarship in this ungodly arguments of yours? The Scriptures (not I) completely destroy your arguments.
You then have the shameless audacity to REPEAT your unscriptural and dishonest scholarship.
You state: "As I said, Jesus s contrasting the second statement (unforgivable sin) with the first statement (forgivable sin). Or really? Jesus said "UNforgivable," did He? And in whose Bible, pray tell, are you finding THAT word? It never came out of any Greek manuscript! Jesus is NOT comparing "forgiveable" with "UNforgivable." He is comparing SINS--two categories of sins. One category that is forgiven and one that is NOT FORGIVEN FOR THE NEXT TO AGES. For two specific periods of TIME, this sin is not forgiven. You cannot honest change Christ's words from "not for the next two ages" to "never for all eternity." You are dishonest, Nick.
Then yet a THIRD time you suggest that the word "never" is proper by quoting Mark 3:29. What was your purpose in quoting The Greek Interlinear if not to show what the EXACT words were? "Never" is not a substitution for the word "not." One if "NOT for two ages." The other is "NEVER, EVER." And you gloss over this as if it is not even important to make this critical difference. Suppose you were sentenced for a crime, and the Judge said that, "you shall not come out of jail this week or the week after." But the warden interpreted the Judge's statement to mean, "you shall NEVER EVER come out of jail." Do you think THEN, Nick, that you might be ready to argue the use of these two words properly? Think about it.
This is the first time, of tens of thousands of emails, that I have ever had someone suggest that if two Scriptures speak of the VERY SAME EVENT, that the verse that leaves out some of the information that the other verse puts in, that we should go with the one that LEAVES INFORMATION OUT. Talk about grasping at straws. You are really GRASPING! Since only ONE gospel account tells us that Jesus was sent to Herod the night of His capture, are we to assume that IT DIDN'T HAPPEN, because the other three gospel writers leave it out? This is foolishness on a level I have never witnessed before.
Concerning the Concordant Version you state, "Once again Ray, why is every word translated but only eon and eonian are transliterated? And eonian is not even a word."
Both of your statements are false.
Eon and eonian are not transliterated, but translated. Eon and eonian are ENGLISH words, not English spellings of Greek words. THOUSANDS of words from many languages are spelled very similar when translating them into English. Just page through your dictionary.
As for "eonian" not being a word, I have not idea where you ever got such an idea:
"eonian....Greek, aionios, from aion...an age...lasting for eons" (Webster's Twentieth Century Dictionary, p. 568.)
The English words "eon" and "aeon" are the same with the SAME meanings.
The English words "eonian" and "aeonian" are the same with the SAME meanings.
You are so foolish and demeaning to God that when you quote a verse like Proverbs 21:3, "To do righteousness and justice is DESIRED by the Lord rather than sacrifice," that you have somehow Scripturally proven that GOD WILL NOT EVER receive the fulfillment of that desire. There are HUNDREDS of statements in Scripture where men go against and contrary to God's will. It is God's PLAN than they go against His will. But His WILL, WILL be accomplished and fulfilled. Puny men going against God's will does NOT disannul it. Where do you come up with such blasphemy?
You then try to give an example in your own life that PROVES this foolish asserting that God will NEVER EVER have His desire because it appears for the "moment" that men just aren't doing what He desires. God is not done with the human race, YET, Nick, just in case you thought it all over at death. It is not. There is JUDGMENT. Judgment sets things right. "When Thy JUDGMENTS are in the earth the inhabitants of THE WORLD WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Isa. 26:9).
Here is your analogy: "But just because I know my 2 year old will go to the bathroom in her pants on a daily basis does not mean that I DESIRE for her to do so." So you think that is clever little analogy that PROVES God's desires will never be met?
Nick, if I come to your home fifteen years from now, WILL YOUR DAUGHTER STILL BE MESSING HER PANTS??
We are God's "little children" the Scriptures say, and GOD IS GOING TO POTTY TRAIN THIS ENTIRE GODLESS WORLD. And you can take that to the bank.
You state: "Why would we assume that over 20 versions are wrong and the one produced by those who believe the doctrines of Universalism to be right?...but the 'eonian penalty for the sin' is FOREVER."
I do NOT "assume" anything, Nick, it is YOU who are assuming that your 20 translations are RIGHT? Why should we "assume" your position? Because 20 outnumbers 1? Does the Bible indicate that it is the MAJORITY who are usually "right" or "wrong." Remember, "BROAD is the way, and MANY....."
Just because Christendom avoids honest and unbiased translations like the plague, does not mean that they don't exist. Here are a few English translations that properly translate "eonian":
Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959
The Companion Bible, 1990 A King James Reference Bible
Youngs Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1898
The Holy Bible in Modern English (Fenton), 1903
The Emphatic Diaglott, 1912 edition (Greek/English Interlinear)
The New Covenant, 1884
The New Testament in Modern Speech, 1910
The restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, 1976
The New Testament of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, 1958
The New Testament a Translation, 1938
Scarlets Bible
Etc., etc.
The Greek word "aionios" does NOT mean "eternal." Verses such as Romans 16:25 totally disprove such asserting:
"Now to Him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began."
Notice that this mystery was which was kept secret is NOW REVEALED! It "WAS kept secret," but NOW it is revealed. How LONG was this secret kept secret? Why, "since the WORLD began," we are told in the King James Bible. But you see, there is a problem here. The Greek word for "world" is "kosmos" (Strong's #2889). But the Greek word translated "world" here in Rom. 16:25 is the Greek word "aionios" which you say MUST MEAN "FOREVER"--And I quote: "...but the 'eonian penalty for the sin' is FOREVER."
Let me make one more statement with regards to translating Greek words into English words that STILL maintain the statement is the verse as being a true statement. I specifically have reference to verses where God is referred to the "AIONIOS" God. Some insist that this MUST be translated "the ETERNAL God" of "the God of Eternity." Not so. That is unscriptural foolishness. Just because it is a true statement to say "the ETERNAL God" does not mean that that is how it SHOULD be translated, just because the statement is true. When translating this verse properly as "the EONIAN God" the statement is still true (that is, God really IS, the "GOD OF THE EONS--He made the eons and He is "the GOD of the eons"). And so why not translate properly and consistently according to what the Holy Spirit SAID, not what translators say is ALSO A TRUE STATEMENT, by CHANGING and ADDING TO the words inspired by the Holy Spirit.
Suppose that since I live in the South, that I want to translate Matt. 10:42 as follows: "And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a GLASS OF ICE COLD TEA only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward."
I could play semantic games and say that in the South it is customary on a hot day to offer a "GLASS OF ICE COLD TEA" rather than "a cup of cold water." After all, the STATEMENT of our Lord's is still TRUE, is it not? Yes, that is correct, it does not change the meaning of the statement IN THIS VERSE. But the fact remains, that the Holy Spirit did NOT inspire the words "glass of ice cold tea!" It is a fallacious translation. It is ADDING TO the word of God. Now it does not apparent harm to call God "the ETERNAL God." That is a TRUE statement, but IT IS ;NOT A TRUE TRANSLATION! And when we make this SAME mistake of translating with reference to punishment for the ages, it becomes NEVER-ENDING, ETERNAL PUNISHMENT, which is a damnable heresy.
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-- Edited by bereans on Tuesday 5th of July 2011 10:04:57 PM
I stumbled upon your website and read some of your explanations of biblical doctrine. I must admit, I was encouraged at your in-depth research and interest in scriptural truth.
The bible say's at Proverb's 2:1-5 "My son, if you will receive my sayings and treasure up my own commandments with yourself, so as to pay attention to wisdom with your ear, that you may incline your heart to discernment; if, moreover, you call out for understanding itself and you give forth your voice for discernment itself, if you keep seeking for it as for silver, and as for hid treasure you keep searching for it, in that case you will understand the fear of Jehovah, and you will find the very knowledge of God."
I have come to realize, most people do not put forth that kind of effort in learning bible truth's. Instead, the rely on the interpretation of their ministers and rely on their own thoughts of what the scriptures mean.
Again Proverb's 3:5 say's, "Trust in Jehovah with all your heart, and do not lean upon your own understanding. In all your ways take notice of him, and He himself will make your path straight." As I read some of your comments, I thought to myself, "could he be? "He sure sounds like one of Jehovah's servants."
Then I read a reply to one of Jehovah's servants. You said, "I don"t have anything against Jehovah's Witness. I applaud their not teaching eternal torment, however many of their other teachings are just not true."
That is why I am writing to you. Your explanation, basically means that, you feel that God is to blame for all the suffering mankind experiences.
You say:
God's supremacy has not been challenged by Satan. Satan can do no more than what God allows him to do.
Have you ever noticed in the first chapter of Job how Satan had to ASK PERMISSION before touching anyone? Satan does not put the integrity of all men to the test.What the bible say's. First the bible book of Job did not say that Satan asked God's permission to touch Job. If you NOTICE in the 1st chapter of Job, Satan did not ask for permission to touch Job. He asked GOD to touch Job, big difference in what you say.
Actually that whole account describes a challenge towards God and Job. Job's integrity to God was challenged and Satan charged God, that He was mistaken in the way He created humans, and that none would want to do the right thing when put under pressure. In fact he claimed that under test they would even curse God! (Job 1:8-12; 2:3-5) Yes, Job's integrity to Jehovah was challenged. Then Jehovah with confidence in that integrity and knowing His own ability to recover and reward Job, PERMITTED Satan to test Job's integrity to the limit.
So yes, the book of Job proves that Satan does challenge man's integrity towards God. He was an outstanding example to all true Christians of integrity to God under trial. Satan does put the integrity of man to the test.
Remember our example Jesus? What was Satan doing to Jesus during his temptations? Was not Satan trying to get Jesus to be disloyal to God? Was that not a challenge of Jesus integrity to God? The answer is clear, yes it was.
You say Satan did not cause the rebellion in Eden. Eve lusted after the forbidden fruit and sinned. And it was GOD who planted the tree and it was GOD who put it right in the middle of the garden and it was GOD who made it so beautiful and desirable to make one wise, etc., etc. It was not Satan who done those things.
What the bible say's:
The way you put it, you feel that because God put mankind in a beautiful garden like home, with an abundance of food, that He is to blame for the rebellion in Eden! That could not be any farther from the truth. The bible says that Jehovah's original purpose for mankind and the earth was for man to live forever on a paradise earth. He gave them a wonderful home, the Garden of Eden, which means, Park of Pleasure. He gave them a wonderful fulfilling assignment, they were to fill the earth and subdue it ( Gen. 1:28 ). God wanted them to extend the paradise throughout the whole earth. They were to take care of the Garden and spread it out. What a wonderful assignment! Who doesn't like to garden? not many. Adam had other duties too. He had to name the animals ( Gen. 2:19 ).Yes, the creator gave mankind a perfect start, it could not have been better. What a caring God he proved to be!
So was it God who caused the rebellion in Eden like you claim or was it Satan, the one who you believe did not cause it? LOOK at the bible's account. In Genesis Chapter 2 and 3 it records the creation. It says that God made the Garden of Eden, like you claim. It does say that god made every tree desirable to ones sight, like you claim. Does that mean that, just because God provided beautiful trees good for food, that he caused the rebellion? as you claim!
Notice Ch. 3 describes Eve being confronted by a serpent. That serpent spoke to her, enticing her to eat from the tree ( Gen. 3:1,4,5). WHO WAS THIS SERPENT? The bible say's that Satan the Devil used that serpent, much in the same way a ventriloquist uses a dummy, to entice Eve to rebel against God. In the book of Revelations, Satan is refereed to as the "Original Serpent" ( Rev.12:9; 20:2 )
And notice it was only AFTER Satan had questioned about the tree, that it became something longed for the eyes and was something desirable to look at ( gen.3:6 ). That is why the bible say's CONSEQUENTLY, which means, as a result of: ( after Satan had questioned her about the tree ) the women saw that the tree was good for food and so on. So it was because of Satan the Devils questioning Eve concerning the tree, that caused her to violate God's law, concerning that tree.
Think about it ! Adam and Eve had been living in the garden for some time now. Do you think that she had never seen the tree before? Not likely. It was only after Satan said that she would be like God if she ate from it, that she began to look at the tree differently.
It is very clear that it was Satan who promoted rebellion against God in the Garden of Eden, NOT GOD! And by you blaming God for the rebellion, you're saying that he is the cause of wickedness committed in human history, He is the source of all wars, the crime ,the immorality , the oppression, the lying, the hypocrisy, the disease, which was the direct result from the rebellion in Eden. But the bible clearly states that "You are not a God taking delight in wickedness." (Ps. 5:4) Any one loving violence His soul certainly hates."( Ps 11:5) " God... cannot lie"( Titus 1:2 ) " From oppression and from violence he will redeem their soul, and their blood will be precious in his eyes."( Ps 72:14) " God is love"(1 John 4:8)"he is a lover of righteousness and justice." (Ps.33:5)
GOD DOES NOT CAUSE SUFFERING!
In closing, I hope you prayerfully consider this letter. I also pray that in your studies, Jehovah helps you to see, He has an organization on earth, which is Jehovah's Witnesses, doing his will which is that all sorts of men come into an accurate knowledge of the truth and be saved by means of the Good news of God's Kingdom. ( 1Tim.2:;4 ) (Isaiah 43:10) (Matthew 24:14)
Sincerely,
Derrick
Ps If you want to talk more I'd be happy to.
[Ray replies]
Thank you for your email and comments.
I will briefly go through your comments:
You said, "...you [that's me] feel that God is to BLAME for all the suffering mankind experiences." Well, I would say "blame" is a very poor choice of words to describe what I believe regarding this matter. Blame denotes being WRONG or doing BAD or SINNING. God NEVER sins! A sin is a MISTAKE, a MISSING OF THE MARK, a FALLING SHORT of the ideal, whatsoever is not OF FAITH, and LAWLESSNESS.
God is not to BLAME for any of these. God is, however, responsible for EVIL and SINNERS, and everything else in this universe, seeing that it was He Who created it.
It does no good to hide one's head in the sand and pretend that God has nothing to do with EVIL. I heard Billy Graham teach the whole world from the national cathedral after 9/11 that, "God is not the author of evil." But of course, Billy Graham doesn't use the Scriptures for his authority, but rather the unscriptural traditions of men:
Isa. 45:7, "I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace [good], and CREATE EVIL; I the LORD DO ALL THESE THINGS."
God most certainly IS the creator of EVIL!
Contrary to the pagan and unscriptural traditions and heresies of Christendom, God IS responsible for ALL, because "ALL IS OF GOD" (Eph. 1:11, Rom. 11:36, II Cor.5:18), Etc.
You can't quote a Scripture that states that God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, and therefore conclude that God is opposed to anyone ever dying. God Himself makes WAR IN RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Have you never read ALL of the Bible:
"Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not EVIL AND GOOD?" (Lam. 3:38).
"...an experience of EVIL hath God given to the sons of man to humble him thereby"(Ecc. 1:13, Concordant Translation).
"Or has not the potter [GOD] the right over the clay, out of the same kneading to make one vessel, indeed, for honor, yet, on for DISHONOR?" (Rom. 9:19-25).
"...I [GOD] will bring EVIL from the north, and a GREAT DESTRUCTION" (Jer. 4:6).
"...Hear, O earth: behold, I [GOD] will bring EVIL upon this people..." (Jer. 6:19).
"And he said, I [the lying spirit] will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets... and He [GOD] said, ...GO forth, and DO SO" (I Kg. 22:22).
"He [GOD] turned their heart to HATE HIS PEOPLE..." (Psa. 105:25).
"...Thus said the Lord; Behold, I FRAME EVIL AGAINST YOU, and devise a device against you..." (Jer. 18:11).
"O LORD, why has THOU MADE US TO ERR from thy ways, and HARDENED OUR HEART from thy fear?" (Isa. 63:17).
"...so shall the Lord bring upon you ALL EVIL THINGS, until he have destroyed you..."(Josh. 23:15).
"...shall there be EVIL in a city, and the LORD HAS NOT DONE IT?" (Am. 3:6).
"Thus saith the Lord of hosts... go and SMITE Amelek... DESTROY... SLAY both man and woman, INFANT AND SUCKLING..." (I Sam. 15:2-3).
These may not be verses for Sunday school children, but they are Scripture for the mature.
God "SCOURGES every son that He receives." If you know anything about "scourging" you know it is quite severe. Job's afflictions were QUITE severe, our Apostle Paul's afflictions were QUITE severe.
God created EVIL, and God uses EVIL. But, He uses it for a GOOD AND HOLY AND RIGHTEOUS PURPOSE! "Evil" has nor moral bias. Evil is only a SIN when men use evil against other men. When God uses it, it is NO sin.
I did not say that Satan said: "Lord God, may I have permission to beat the hell out of Job?" I was merely showing that that WAS the implication of the discussion. Being "permitted" to do something is the same as "permission" to do something; there is no difference. Now, notice your OWN words: "Then Jehovah...PERMITTED Satan to test Job's integrity to the limit."
Jesus Christ is not a man to be compared with us, as when Satan tempted Jesus in the wilderness.
You suggest that I feel that God "...is to blame for the rebellion in Eden! That could not be any farther from the truth. The bible says that Jehovah's ORIGINAL PURPOSE...." Again, I don't like your choice of words, "blame." Let's say "responsible." And that IS the truth.
You mention God's "original purpose" suggesting that that purpose has now been thwarted and has forced God to go to plan 'B'! Now that is nonsense! NO ONE thwarted God's original plan. God is not going to "Plan B." Contrary to all Christendom, God IS NOT RUNNING A DAMAGE CONTROL CENTER FROM HIS THRONE IN HEAVEN!!!
No one. ABSOLUTELY NO ONE will ever thwart God's original plan! It is blasphemy to even suggest it! God has always known the beginning from the end. How and why, pray tell, would God have provided a Sacrifice "SLAIN FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD" (before Adam and Eve were ever created), if God did not plan for Adam and Eve TO SIN and disobey and eat of the forbidden fruit, and thereby have need of a SAVIOUR?
We have to have a little sensibility about us. God Himself possesses a knowledge of good and evil. God wants SONS. Sons posses the attributes of their Father. It was necessary for us to learn of good and evil. They are both in the same fruit tree, as there can be no knowledge of good without a knowledge of evil. All of life's knowledge is a contrast. We cannot appreciate health unless we see sickness, we cannot appreciate food until we get hungry. When cannot know what light is unless we experience darkness.
Your theory that man would have been happy in the Garden for all eternity if he hadn't eaten of the forbidden fruit is nonsense. He didn't really know that ANYTHING in the Garden was good--he had never experienced EVIL! It's that simple and it's that profound. God is truly WISE!
God has designed men to be spiritually WEAK. Men go against God's WILL--God planned for men to go against His will--it was His original INTENTION. But...BUT, absolutely NO ONE HAS EVER OR EVER WILL, GO AGAINST HIS INTENTION! Romans 9:19 should read, "Why, then, is He still blaming? for who has withstood HIS INTENTION?" And the answer is, "absolutely NO ONE"!
You casually mention the Serpent, Satan the Devil in the Garden. Where did HE come from? Who created HIM? How come HE was permitted to destroy Adam and Eve? Where was GOD during all this? Christians put Almighty God on the level of human beings. With the same weaknesses, the same stupidity, the same inept plans, etc., etc. God IS NOT A MAN! These things did not "just happen" in the Garden without God's KNOWING or without God's PERMISSION, or without God's INTENTION that they happen!
In your closing paragraph you use all caps stating: "GOD DOES NOT CAUSE SUFFERING!" I'm sorry, that statement is just not true. Job was a perfect and upright man, and yet God TOLD SATAN TO INFLICT HIM WITH UNIMAGINABLE SUFFERING!
Read it again!
David suffered all the days of his life. Paul suffered like no man who has ever lived (II Cor 11:22-28). Jesus personally said how severely Paul would have to SUFFER (Acts 9:16). Jesus Christ SUFFERED (Mat. 16:21). And it "PLEASED GOD TO BRUISE HIM" in that suffering of death on the cross!! It is through MUCH trials and tribulation [suffering] that we enter the Kingdom of God (Acts 14:23).
And even more, Peter tells us that for the very PURPOSE OF SUFFERING we were called! "For for this were you called, seeing that Christ also SUFFERED for your sakes, leaving you an example [or copy], that YOU SHOULD BE FOLLOWING UP IN THE FOOTPRINTS of Him..."
Just one more: "So that, let those also who ARE SUFFERING [why? for what purpose? by Whose hand?] according TO THE WILL OF GOD commit their souls to a faithful Creator in the doing of Good" (I Pet. 4:19). It is "according to the will of God" that we suffering. I don't mean to be overly critical of your comments, but they just aren't Scriptural.
May God guide you into His wisdom and perfect will for you life.
Sincerely,
Ray
-- Edited by soulsolution on Thursday 7th of July 2011 09:11:09 PM
